16 September

How To Disagree: Barbara Teaches Us A Lesson

by Jon Katz

I see that some people who read my blog are afraid to disagree with me, they think I might go after them or be angry.

This is upsetting to me, it tells me I am sending out the wrong signals and need to work harder to make myself better and clearer. In my mind, I am challenging nasty people who are forgetting how to disagree in a respectful way without personal attacks.

But I’m not sure that message is getting through. In fact, I know it isn’t. My bad.

Barbara B, a long-time blog reader, and a valuable commentator send me a message this morning, it was a model of civil disagreement, and valuable disagreement; a lesson in how to communicate with people on social media that is both positive and constructive and helps people like me grow and learn.

Her message was very important. I have been writing about No-Kill shelters for some time, they have become a metaphor in my mind for the mistreatment and new abuse of animals like dogs in the name of loving them.

I always ask myself when I make decisions about dogs if I am making decisions for me or for them. The idea of dogs languishing in crates for years does not seem humane to me in any way. I fear people use it as a means of feeling better about themselves, it sure isn’t good for many dogs.

But in making my arguments, I sometimes tend to generalize.

Not all No-Kill Shelters are alike, not all breeders are alike, not all rescue groups or shelters are alike. It is wrong for me to pain so broad a brush, and it is very wrong of me to give good people like Barbara the idea that disagreement makes me angry and will draw retribution. Nothing could be further from my intentions. I love disagreement and need it, it is cruelty and anger disguised as a civil disagreement that I challenge.

When someone couples disagreements with personal attacks, as happens frequently, I feel the need to challenge them, in my own interests and on behalf of the many people terrorized by jerks and ass—– online. I hope I never stop doing that

People who are cruel and rude in their interactions online ought to be challenged. People who disagree honestly and civilly ought never to be challenged aggressively, and in my mind, I have always distinguished between the two.  I like to think I am as respectful as the people talking to me.

I have done a poor job of making that clear is someone like Barbara is anxious about disagreeing with me and doesn’t make the same distinction.

I apologize for that and I will do better. When I was young, I was attacked relentlessly by people who were supposed to be taking care of me, and I can easily get defensive and fight back. Some wounds never completely heal.

I am sorry to say I can relate – in a personal and uncomfortable way –  to some aspects of our Presidents sickness and dysfunction, I’ve done it, on a very different scale.

Unlike him, I recognized this as an illness and got a lot of help with it.

But I see I have more work to do, perhaps I will always have to work at it. I love to argue, and I love to be disagreed with. That is the whole point of our country, civil disagreement, not hatred, and cruel and reflexiveness defensiveness. It’s how I learn.

A good way to get me to not listen is to attack me on a personal level, a good way to get me to listen is to simply disagree in a direct and respectful way. You will have nothing to fear from me. People disagree with me all the time, every day in fact. There is very little trouble.

If you wonder how to do that, just read this excerpt from Barbara’s message:

I agree with your ideas about animal compassion as far as euthanizing when the proper time comes.

 I have to say there are excellent no-kill shelters.  I have volunteered in one for twenty years, the Santa Fe Animal Shelter in the New Mexico you and Maria loved.

The shelter keeps dogs in large, clean kennels that are cleaned every day.  The dogs are walked at least twice a day and our behavior staff forms playgroups for them to romp together. We have about a 94% adoption rate which makes us what is called a no-killer shelter.  We are lucky.  Santa Fe loves animals and though we are privately funded we do all right.

Some dogs do stay over a year and we always jump for joy when that dog goes home.  The dogs that stay longest are usually Pit’s who are large and sometimes black.  There is an undeserved prejudice against these dogs.  My favorite, Smokey (pittie, large and black) just went home after 194 days.   The shelter thought it was a good match and he has not been returned.  Yeah!

Sadly, some dogs degenerate after a while and have to be put down humanely along with sick dogs our clinic cannot cure and dogs (a very few) that are judged unadoptable mostly for biting and dog on dog aggression.

Here’s what I thought when I read this message. Oh, what a good thing to hear. Of course, Barbara is correct, not all No-Kill Shelters are alike, I should not be tarring them all with so broad a brush.

I don’t really disagree with a word she said, and I was grateful she took the time to get me to think a little more thoughtfully about what has become a knee-jerk position. When I stop listening, I stop thinking. That is the curse of the left and the right, I don’t wish to go there.

My objection with the idea of the No-Kill shelter is probably somewhat deeper than Barbara’s. Santa Fe, where she lives, has a lot of affluent, dog-loving people. Few No-Kill shelters, I imagine, would have anything like a 94 percent adoption rate. And I personally believe a year is too long for a large and active dog to live in a crate in the hope he or she might get adopted.

My other problem with the No-Kill idea is that it has become a kind of Knee Jerk, self-righteous position in the dog world, an evolution of the extreme end of the already extreme animal rights movement, which argues that no dog should ever be euthanized for any reason.

This condemns countless aggressive, inbred or unadoptable dogs to a lifetime of unnatural and unhealthy confinement. There is little discussion or thought about this very new and radical understanding of what to do with the millions of unwanted dogs our thoughtless and unknowing culture churns out into the system each year.

The Santa Fe shelter Barbara is talking about seems thoughtful and rational in its approach, and you can’t really argue with a 94 percent adoption rate. I wish it were this high in poor and rural communities.

If you see some of the dogs, sentenced to life-time jail sentences, you can see for yourself the damage this prolonged and somewhat hopeless internment does to them. No dog was meant to live in a tiny box for years, I can hardly think of a crueler thing to do to them.

As Barbara herself points out, the Santa Fe shelter is fortunate and privately funded. Most shelters are not so lucky, they are forced to waste precious resources on dogs with no future, in poor health, and without prospects of adoption. Some clearly should not be adopted, they put children and others and dogs at risk.

Every dog should not sustainably or morally be forced to live forever in crates no matter their health or temperament. If dogs could vote or speak, I doubt a single one would wish that unnatural fate upon themselves. So I sometimes feel I should try to speak for them.

It seems like Barbara’s shelter does recognize that euthanasia is sometimes the most humane option in a world with many millions of sheltered dogs, so many of them unadoptable.

But her point is well taken, and I hear it and will incorporate it into my writing All “No-Kill” shelters are not the same. It sounds like hers might be a good model for many of the others.

And I thank Barbara for reminding me, and perhaps showing others that disagreement is healthy and important. I need it and want it, I’ve always asked for it. She made her point clearly and respectfully, and in part because of that, I heard it and accepted it gratefully.

The Internet has become a cruel, even socially violent and out-of-control monster in many ways. Those of us who write openly and daily are subject to staggering amounts of abuse, threats and personal assaults. I can handle it, I’ve been doing it for a long time. But this has smothered civil discourse in a very sad and pervasive way.

Please feel free to disagree with me in a civil way. And if you can’t disagree with me in a civil way and without personal attacks, then please feel free to go somewhere else. I will come after you.

You, Barbara, have nothing to fear from me.

I hope I never stop learning and growing, and disagreement is perhaps the best and most effective way for that to happen.

7 Comments

  1. I wholeheartedly agreed with your decision to let Red die with dignity. With regard to Zelda, I’m a city girl (well, I grew up in a town amid dozens of thoroughbred horse farms), so I don’t understand the mindset of farmers shooting an animal they’ve raised and worked alongside for many years. The horses I’ve known and loved were treated better than many people I’ve known who cared for them, so of course, when they were irreparably injured or sick they were ‘humanely euthanized’. Regardless of the opinions and preferences of any of your readers Zelda’s fate and that of Red are NOT our business. I’m just sorry the acceleration of Zelda’s decline came so close on the heels of Red’s death — sorry that you even have to ponder the end again. Since I’m told my balloon never lands and as a writer, I’ll just have to close the chapter in my mind in a neat & tidy way. I’ll imagine that Red will meet Zelda at the gate when she crosses over on Wednesday. With her renewed vigor Zelda will no doubt give Red a run for his money and restore purpose to his life in the hereafter.

    1. Hey, city girl, I’m a city boy and thanks for your message. The rationale is that it is simpler, safer and quicker to shoot an animal than to have a stranger hold them down, attach an IV drip into their leg, inject them two or three times in a neck. That’s a hard way for an animal used to her people and flock to leave the world. As a city person, it is perhaps hard to grasp the fear and disorientation that causes in an animal. I would love for Zelda’s last moments on the earth to be with her flock and the people she knows – she is not afraid of me, to say the least. Farm animals are not pet, and I ought to mention it will cost nearly $300 to euthanize Zelda, shooting her would cost about eight cents. On a farm, that matters, we have a lot of sheep and animals here, and if you want to keep a farm, you can’t treat every animal like a pet, that is a good and quick way to not have a farm. I don’t mind your expressing your feelings, you did so in a civil and thoughtful way, it doesn’t’ trouble me a bit. And I will think about what you said. Up here, I see the widening gap between city people and country people, a gap that gets wider all the time. Animals and our ideas of being humane contribute to this growing chasm. Thanks for speaking your mind, I am a fan of that.

  2. Jon, where is the outrage, the protests, the pitchforks and torches – the inner city shelters here and in England are full of bullies or pitties FULL and not being adopted and usually found on streets or from dog fighting and black dogs and cats are NOT easily adopted — yet it is the gang members and inner city denizens that are putting these dogs at risk and abandoning them — where is the 1,000,000 person march?

  3. So glad to read this post. I volunteer at the Sacramento County Animal Shelter, which is a public shelter and has to take in every animal brought to them. They have worked so hard to decrease euthanasia rates and with the help of our volunteer group, Sacramento Shelter Pets Alive, the large dog adoption rate is now over 90% which qualifies this public shelter as “no kill.” SSPA runs playgroups 6 days a week and a behavior team and volunteers walk the dogs who cannot do playgroups. They also do adoption counseling and fostering. It’s a passionate group of people doing their best for the animals. I get the list every day of outcomes and have seen the euthanized animals plummet. The people doing the on-the-ground every day at the shelter are true heroes and deserve all of our compassion and support. It’s an incredibly tough and often heartbreaking job and only the strong survive. I do my small part by running the photo program so all the dogs have professional photos that show them as the much loved pets they are. Thank you for looking closer at this issue and for your thoughtful words.

  4. Jon, I so love and appreciate your above comments! Both the no-kill shelters and the fear of disagreeing/commenting on your posts issues speak to me. I have read your blog daily for many years, have purchased autographed copies of every book from Battenkill Books and met you, Maria and Orson at a book signing back in the day. I have laughed, cried and learned much from doing so. I’ll say that I probably agree with you 90% of the time. On occasion I would have liked to comment or disagree but haven’t. I also read most of the comments on your FB posts and have found myself cringing at times at your responses to people. Some, I’m sure, deserve the acerbic reply but I’ve also felt that some are merely innocent remarks made by ‘novice’ Jon Katz fans who don’t have the benefit of having read your thoughts and opinions for years. I’ve thought, ‘wow, he could have just said Bye Bye to those people or ignored them instead of destroying them with words’. I hesitate even now to say this but today you’ve written about disagreeing in a productive way. Don’t get me wrong, when people attack you in a personal way I absolutely love your defense and am all for giving them hell! It’s the folks who make (in my opinion) a rather banal, innocent yet possibly ill-informed remark and they get a rather heavy handed rebuke. I wish I could think of an example at the moment but I can’t.
    That being said, I’m always amazed at how much of your life you’re willing to share with thousands of us out here in faceless space and admire your willingness to do so graciously. In your position, I would have told off most everyone by now. Ha!
    I loved Barbara’s comments about no-kill shelters and appreciate your reply. I’ve also worked with good/shelters, good/bad rescue groups, good/bad breeders. It’s never a black and white issue in my opinion. I have 3 dogs and 2 cats who were obtained through a combination of rescues, shelters and breeders. You have eloquently stated that there’s no one way to get an animal and I wholeheartedly agree. I look forward to following your future animal adventures. Now I shall go quietly back to reading you in the shadows. Thanks, always, for your honesty.

    1. Thanks Jeane, I appreciate your reply too very thoughtful and honest. It is not always easy for me to separate the nasty people from the “novices,” and I don’t always have or take the time to sort it out.

      I love your message and can’t take issue with it, except that I will always be honest about how I feel, and I’m still learning how to deal with hundreds, even thousands of strangers comments pouring into my inbox, messaging system. I’m not sure I need to be attacking people who attack me at all, a better response is to ignore them and move along. I’m moving in that direction, I think, I don’t really have time to fight with people much in public or online, and it is rarely productive. Messages like yours are quite productive, and I believe I have always been open to them. It’s not like there isn’t a ton of disagreements on my public forums, they are there every day.

      I’m actually doing quite a bit of not needing to reply to messages that don’t seem worthwhile. I have, as you know, some issues with learning disorders and I think I often sound angrier or more upset than I am. I don’t know if I can do much about all that, other than ignore the messages that are cruel, and be as honest and simple as I can with the others. You don’t need examples, I’ve seen these messages and so has everybody else. I’m told I’m a complex person with different parts, no one knows that better than me.

      From my end, I feel I’ve come a long way with anger, and these flareups just don’t happen much anymore especially given the volume of messages I get, as some people have noticed. When I write about comments, it’s because I feel that there is an issue that should be shared. As I read over some of these exchanges, I see some posts that are stronger than necessary, but I see a lot that are simply honest by my lights..

      I don’t really aspire to be acerbic, it’s not something that is a goal of mine.

      What is honest for me may be unnerving for others. I have noticed that people who are rude or insulting get positively outraged when they are challenged, and I feel it my duty to challenge people like that. But if people like you are nervous about commenting or disagreeing, then I am doing something wrong and need to fix it. I always am eager to learn and grow and change, and your message is helpful to me I will read it and consider it and thank you for it. I can’t promise to be anyone but me, but I can certainly take this issue to heart..I must say tons of people disagree with me all the time, publically and privately and there are very few flare-ups..anyway thanks for the message and for hanging in there with me..love and learn and grow!

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